A Desi Woman with Soniya Gokhale

A Desi Woman with Soniya Gokhale: India's COVID-19 Crisis--A Conversation with Dr. Anuradha Chenoy

Episode Summary

Dr. Anu Chenoy is the retired former Dean at the Jawaharlal Nehru School of International Studies in New Delhi, India. Dr. Chenoy has been the chairperson of area studies and director in the center for Russian and central Asian studies. She has also written numerous books, monographs and articles in the domain of security studies, development studies and gender. Dr. Chenoy has held short-term consultancies with the international committee of the Red Cross, UNESCO, Action Aid International, UN women and UN peacekeepers to name a few. She has also evaluated the work of organizations like Focus on the Global South and The Asia Europe Peoples Forum. Anu is joins us to discuss the developing humanitarian crisis in India as the country faces a devastating and deadly, second wave of the COVID-19 virus.

Episode Notes

https://www.chalogive.org/

https://www.sewausa.org/

Episode Transcription

Soniya Gokhale (00:05):

Welcome back to another episode of A Desi Woman podcast. I am your host, Soniya Gokhale. And the voices I am seeking may have never been heard before, but their stories deserve to be told. What is a desi woman? She is a dynamic, fearless and strong woman. She is your mother, your grandmother, your daughter, your sister. She is every one of us with on an endless pursuit of self-empowerment and fulfillment. I am Soniya Gokhale and I am a desi woman.

 

Soniya Gokhale (00:40):

Hello, and welcome to a special edition of A Desi Woman podcast. I am your host, Soniya Gokhale and today we are delighted to be joined by professor Anu Chenoy from New Delhi, India. Dr. Anu Chenoy is the retired former Dean at the Jawaharlal Nehru School of International Studies in New Delhi, India. Dr. Chenoy has been the chairperson of area studies and director in the center for Russian and central Asian studies. She has also written numerous books, monographs and articles in the domain of security studies, development studies and gender. Dr. Chenoy has held short-term consultancies with the international committee of the Red Cross, UNESCO, Action Aid International, UN women and UN peacekeepers to name a few. She has also evaluated the work of organizations like Focus on the Global South and The Asia Europe Peoples Forum. Anu is joining us today to discuss the developing humanitarian crisis in India as the country faces a devastating and deadly second wave of the COVID-19 virus. Anu, welcome to the show.

 

Anu Chenoy (02:00):

Thank you. Glad to be here.

 

Soniya Gokhale (02:02):

Well, look, Anu thank you so much, especially in light of everything that is happening right now. And a global audience is watching in horror, shock and sadness as India grapples with a deadly second wave of the COVID-19 virus. And in a news article recently released, Indian scientists have really made an appeal to the Indian government to publicly release virus data that would then allow them to potentially save more lives, as the cases continue to climb. Prompting the army even to open it's hospitals in a desperate bid to control a massive humanitarian crisis and the latest count. And I'm sure this is not in keeping track of current statistics, many of which may be going unreported, so I'll have that question for you in a moment, but basically about more than 18.7 million since the pandemic began.

 

Soniya Gokhale (03:01):

And the latest is over 400,000 new cases, second, only to the United States. The health ministry on Friday also reported an additional 3,498 deaths in the last 24 hours, bringing the total to over 200,000 and experts do believe these figures are under count, but it's really unclear how much it's been under counted. So I just have to ask you, is it as bad as what we're seeing, and how are you and your family and your friends holding up?

 

Anu Chenoy (03:35):

Yeah, thanks Soniya. The three things that you've raised, which I want to attend to right away. First, you said about the 400 scientists writing to the prime minister for asking for data. Now, of course, India is not China or Russia, so data should be available, but it isn't. So everyone's asking, why? Why aren't the scientists, the experts being involved? Why isn't there more openness and more accountability? And I think that's really one of the root causes of such problems itself. When there is such a large scale of tragedy, the point is authoritarian governments do perception management, continue to project their par, all is well as China did in Wuhan. India is not supposed to do that. We're supposed to be a democracy. So really that data, the accountability should be there. There's nothing to be ashamed of, after all this is a pandemic.

 

Anu Chenoy (04:33):

America, UK, Italy, all of them suffered and India is suffering, completely. So there should be a nonpartisan way of looking at it, giving the data, and facing it up. That's one issue which you raised right away. Second, you asked about the personal. Every family is impacted. Friends, relatives. Today I lost a student who was now a professor at the Jamia Millia Islamia, Rizwan Qaiser, and I'm really quite distraught. My husband and I are quite heartbroken about it. He was such a wonderful young person, a South Asia specialist. So this is the story in every family, some cousins, some uncles, some friend. It's like the whole nation is collectively grieving, but at the same time, there seems to be an absence of leadership and a callous response. The kind of responses are really quite shocking by some sections of the establishment.

 

Anu Chenoy (05:36):

For example, today the Supreme court had to intervene because one chief minister, somebody put out a Twitter or something on social media, on help for oxygen. And this particular chief minister threatened to lodge a first information report and arrest him. And people in the political establishment have threatened to penalize people who are asking publicly for help. So the Supreme court has said, they took up a case Suo Moto and said, "No, that's not possible." You cannot do such a thing. It's highly irresponsible.

 

Anu Chenoy (06:12):

So at least the Supreme court and various courts have stood up for the citizens, which again, shows that there are some institutions which remain, but of course the amount and the hugeness, the scale of this second wave of virus is huge, and there's not enough science with challenges or can challenge it. And I think today, one of our leading newspapers, The Indian Express, published a very good interview with Dr. Fauci. And he said, "You need to lock down, you need to keep social distance and vaccines." And the usual advice that we used to see him give to America on a daily basis on CNN. I used to watch it every day and be appalled at the kind of tragedy that you all faced over there, but we're facing the same thing.

 

Anu Chenoy (07:05):

But it's likely to go even higher because there are shortages for everything from testing, then to getting a bed in the hospital, then to getting oxygen, which is the only cure actually to lung disease. Then getting the overworked doctors to attend to you. And if you pass away another nightmare begins because the cremation grounds, the funeral procedures are overbooked and there are lines and lines of just dead bodies lying around the cremation grounds. People aren't getting ambulances. So it's really like a systemic breakdown.

 

Anu Chenoy (07:51):

And it also shows that how much third world countries, including India and the same is happening in Philippines and elsewhere. Being an international relations person, I can say that. They need to divert their defense expenditure into social infrastructure because now the health system is exposed of India, which has been an emerging power. It's been talking so much about itself, and it is true, they have a manufacturing base, they had a high GDP, but it's all collapsing. Why? Because they haven't put enough into health. So there's a shortage of hospitals. They great doctors and scientists here, but there is a shortage now.

 

Soniya Gokhale (08:37):

Well, it's amazing because during our last, first of all, at hope breaking to hear this firsthand account. So it sounds like it's actually just as bad or even worse than we imagined. And to your point, I don't know that the peak has been reached yet, but it's interesting doing our last podcast interview, you alluded to some of the lack of transparency and even non democratic approach to government across India and also the lack of health care spending. And so I don't want to say you prophesied this, but you certainly made note of the fact that in some respects, this is a grim perfect storm given that backdrop. And now we add COVID and the potential variance in the mix for a gruesome reality. I think this is very eyeopening as well for the United States and for other developed countries, because we have been trying to vaccinate our populations.

 

Soniya Gokhale (09:33):

And in some respects, I think The Serum Institute in India has Poonawalla, requested that we send the raw materials to create more vaccine. And what's interesting is what is happening on one, is it happening in all? And so this problem in India is actually a global concern. And I think that is really what's coming to the forefront here. It is in our best interest to get everybody in India vaccinated.

 

Soniya Gokhale (10:01):

And to speaking to the cremation process, I mean, that is also nightmarish where officials have now suggested that families bury in their backyards or cremated in public parks, because crematoriums have exceeded their capacity. And despite India being the world's largest producer of vaccine, the vaccine rate is less than 2% of 1.3 billion people. And as well, shortages of the antiviral drug, Remdesivir, have people begging friends and relatives on social media to locate supplies. Twitter has now become the area and place where you find oxygen, you find supplies. And it's really also peel back the layers of a black market, which has always been thriving, if you're familiar with India. But I just had a question for you on that front. And if that is indeed the way that families are seeking lifesaving offerings for their relatives?

 

Anu Chenoy (11:03):

Correct Soniya, you're right on. Number one, this is a global problem like pandemics are, and it really requires a rethink. I think all of us from policy makers, to the political class, to countries themselves have to rethink. First there was this vaccine nationalism between states. This is a China virus and the Sputnik Five is bad or such and such is bad. Instead of collaboration there was wrong kind of competition. Second, there was a kind of corporate control, which is okay. I mean, no one is opposed to business, but India and South Africa actually put in a plea to the WTO saying that, make this one exception and remove the pattens on the vaccine, just as an exception. This was done in June last year, the WTO kept opposing it, the entire Western countries, opposed it. And there you go. t's still on pattens.

 

Anu Chenoy (12:12):

So Big Pharma is making a lot of money. We don't blame them for making money, but at this cost, the millions on the planet are dying. And the damage to the environment as people are running around chopping trees for cremation. I mean, look at the kind of interlinked crisis that this has generated. Most of the third world has not even got the vaccine yet. India is supposedly the pharmacy of the world. They have great manufacturing, a new name, Poonawalla, and I'll get to that in a while. But it also has a huge population, and there was a miscalculation. India also has an internationalist perspective. So when the West and other countries were having their first, second or third waves, we were exporting. A lot of people have critiqued that, but I don't really critique that because as an international relations person, I feel that was a humane thing to do, but the problem was it should have been matched with more licenses for production, more opening up and the thinking and a consultation with scientists to preempt the second way, which didn't happen.

 

Anu Chenoy (13:24):

At the first wave Delhi, Bombay, all these places had put up huge hospitals. By December these were dismantled. These were temporary military type of hospitals. These were dismantled because the political class thought, "Oh, we are over it, Indians have immunity." And they resorted to all kinds of religiosity, which is structured in India. And they went ahead with the elections, which could have been postponed. And they preponed the Kumbh Mela. Now that happens once in 12 years, it's a huge religious occasion, but it was due next year, but it was brought forward because they're going to be elections in Uttar Pradesh next year. So hundreds of thousands of people gathered in the Kumbh and other such religious functions and then spread the infection. That was the start of the second wave. And that is being kind of not spoken about, except by a few scientists that you shouldn't have had it. The entire political class because of the Hindu vote bank, they're in a state of denial, which again is incorrect.

 

Anu Chenoy (14:39):

To be scientific, you can't just be good in manufacturing and technology. Science means also social science, understanding human beings and confronting the truth. So that hasn't happened. They had these eight months for putting up new hospitals, but the infrastructure in health has not been improved at all. At the same time, the SIPRI report came back just yesterday. It said India is the third biggest defense importer in the world and its defense expenditure has increased. So again, I'm not saying that we should compromise on national security, no way. But we also have to look at human security simultaneously. So you have to kind of balance it out. This is a year of COVID and pandemic. So put more money into health, into insurance, and also educating people.

 

Anu Chenoy (15:32):

You have to inform them that, look, you have to wear your masks. You have to double up, you have to have social distancing. You forgo these huge religious gatherings for a year, but instead you have the political class doing public rallies and speaking without masks. So what kind of message would that give? So there is this kind of anti-science thing. And as far as Poonawalla is concerned, just today I saw in the press that he said, he's going to London. He's gone already to London to be with his family. Of course, he's a big jet setting billionaire, but he said, the reason he's left India is because he was under too much pressure from politicians and big businessmen who were threatening him, that either he sent the vaccine or else. Now that again is not a good thing to happen. And for him to feel free, that he could say this only when he was in London. So things are not good in the system and all this has combined too for this collective tragedy.

 

Soniya Gokhale (16:37):

Well, there's no question about it. That is just an amazing analysis. And I know I do have a lot of global listeners, but especially for those that may not be familiar with what the Kumbh Mela is, it is a religious festival in Hinduism that's celebrated four times over the course of 12 years. And it is extremely auspicious but as you have pointed out, just as in the United States, we've had to give up a lot of liberties and certain pursuits as we battled against COVID. And so it's interesting that against the backdrop of that, and then the elections that you speak to, because what's interesting is, and we talked about this during the previous podcast, the government issued, pretty much draconian in some respect, nationwide lockdown with just a few hours notice, leaving millions of migrant workers stranded and this 21 day shut down briefly impeded the spread of the virus.

 

Soniya Gokhale (17:39):

And it's amazing that you constructed hospitals. And so one just has to think that we've seen the Spanish Flu, we are familiar that these second waves do happen. And in history, we only have to look back to the history of the Spanish Flu and see that the second wave was actually more devastating than the first wave. And so it really looks like missed opportunities. And I do recognize that it's challenging to fault one individual, one person, one government, but when you see so many missed opportunities here and people losing their lives, it's hard not to be critical. Then going into full campaign mode, attending rallies, without any prospect of social distancing and mostly unmasked supporters. Opposition parties, I understand that followed suit. And then add in that, the religious festivals, the Kumbh Mela, and it really, really has only exacerbated many of the issues.

 

Soniya Gokhale (18:45):

And so I do want to understand as it pertains to the vaccinations with Poonawalla, and by the way, there was a news article, many of India's elite heading out on jets just before the deadline was imposed, I know in the UK. Literally coming in a few hours before the deadline was imposed that no visitors or entrance from India were allowed. Some going to the Maldives, so again, and we've seen in this, in the U.S., By the way. Haves and have nots, the black community in this country has suffered in a disparate manner due to the COVID pandemic. And it sounds like in India in some respects, and we will get into that. The cast socio-economics is also playing a role in that, but any other comments around that and this inoculation drive and what you see on that front?

 

Anu Chenoy (19:39):

Yeah, well, as far as the inoculation and the vaccine drive is concerned, the way it started, which was systematic, you had to register on a government site. It worked quite well. I, for example, and my husband, all of us have had our two vaccines. It was very well organized, both in government. Of course it goes slow because all the doctors have been doing it and they've done a magnificent task, but you see, there were all kinds of things. It had to go to the states. There were just one or two vaccines available that is AstraZeneca and a local Indian made co-vaccine. And the other vaccines had not yet come. India is importing the Sputnik, they want the Johnson and Johnson and all other vaccines, so they have lots of issues in that system and the process has been slow, but it's low in every country.

 

Anu Chenoy (20:31):

It takes time. A person has to get the vaccine and wait for half an hour before they leave the premises. So vaccine, I think, has been going on. It's low, but it's not as bad as the other things, like the lack of transparency, the lack of the scientists being consultant, the doctors not being in a core group, which is around the prime minister and talking to him, that don't do this kind of politics right now. Those kinds of things have been missing. And the kind of criticism you've had of Trump. I mean, there's no match to it anywhere in the world. And hats off of how the American media discussed all these issues. It was a lesson to be learned, but unfortunately our media did not learn this, and we came to this conclusion. As far as your second point, which is very important.

 

Anu Chenoy (21:22):

And you talk about the [inaudible 00:21:24], that is the black, Asian minorities and the excluded communities, which are the most to suffer in all of the west. So when there is a crisis, those who are already excluded, suffer more. They're excluded even more. And that's the case in India also. India has a structural cost system, the Dalits. So the lowest cost were always the ones who cremate, who are the ones who perform the autopsies in the hospitals, they are discriminated against. They are invisibilized and they are the poorest. And now, so are many in the Muslim community or the tribals. Similar to the indigenous American communities and the indigenous Indians or in Latin America and north America, et cetera. So these are generally invisibilized and they don't have much of a voice, but they're bearing a huge burden doing these cremations, are part of the sanitary staff.

 

Anu Chenoy (22:29):

But in my last point, I also want to get to the good stories. And that is the kind of community support that has come when the structural system support has failed. When the hospitals are running out of oxygen, the doctors, the nurses, the sanitary staff, the public health managers, everyone from the A to Z around the hospitals are doing a marvelous job. Putting their lives at risk. You can see the similar pictures as you saw in the U.S. with nurses sleeping on the floor and getting up and doing their duty. Nurses were just out of COVID and coming back the very next day, not taking the band aid tree leave to revive their health, but just forsaking everything and coming back. And besides that, the non-governmental organizations, they're the ones who are organizing the cremations. They are the ones who are connecting people who are desperate to oxygen fillers. Of special mention are the Gurudwaras, the Sikh community, and the Muslims have played a major and very important role.

 

Anu Chenoy (23:42):

The Sikh Gurudwaras have started what they call the oxygen loungers. That is anyone in need of oxygen can go there and fill up oxygen. And they've somehow organized it from all over the country, taken industrial oxygen and helped, et cetera. So a lot of lives have also been saved on account of these non-governmental organizations, on account of the Gurudwaras. Muslims who would never enter a cremation ground, they are doing the cremations when the Hindu relatives have not been able to do it, and they've had to run away, or the whole family is sick. So this is really a lesson which our country should learn, this communal harmony, this intercommunity harmony. That's one. And second, the non-governmental organizations were seen as obstructing development because they're very often, kind of rightly, critical because they say always that reprioritize your health and other expenditure.

 

Anu Chenoy (24:44):

They always speak about climate. They speak about the excluded. They want money to go into that. Now that is seen as a criticism of the government. And the last few years, the government even earlier, has tried to shut them up and say that, "Oh, these are anti-development, they just criticize." They've even been called names like they are parasites. They're the class which criticizes everyone and everything. And their funding was closed. There were cases against them, but these are the same people who have now got together. So I hope this so-called system realizes the value of civil society, the value of openness, the value of accountability, the value of international harmony. We have all these wonderful kind of idioms and slogans like [foreign language 00:25:39], the world is a small family. And our leadership keeps repeating them. But this is a way to actually see it from grassroots up, from ground up and to look at it holistically.

 

Anu Chenoy (25:51):

So there is this side also, which we must not forget, the stories of how people and social media experts have gone into this and built right from scratch. They've built websites, they've put it on Instagram. There's so many beds vacant in this hospital so that people don't have to run around from hospital to hospital because none of the hospitals are picking up their phones. They're too busy. The chemists are not picking up the phones. There's a shortage, as you said, right in the beginning of Remdesivir and every medicine.

 

Anu Chenoy (26:30):

Ordinary people, I mean, even non COVID cases, for example, they're not getting beds. A woman who was about to deliver a child, couldn't find a bed because all hospitals have become COVID hospitals. So the NGOs are the ones which helped, and things are falling into place, but the peak has not yet come. We're going to see worse. The doctors are saying that all of May is going to be really disastrous. So one has to keep supporting those who are working. Keep and make sure that whoever is in par, the political class as a whole in par, in opposition, in parliament, in policymaking, the bureaucracy, they should really perform and put everything aside and make sure that all the citizens are safe and not discriminate between them really.

 

Soniya Gokhale (27:23):

Well. The last part of his interview, at least, does wow. It offers some beautiful stories of hope and coming together, as you stated, across faith, across religious backgrounds, across caste. And absolutely the Dalit community, they do not have PPE wear, which is what is recommended when the cremations are occurring. And so absolutely we see that they are bearing the brunt of this and the frontline healthcare workers, while some inspiring tireless, warriors really, on the front lines of this battle. And we will continue to watch this. And I know I will have links to a variety of organizations that you can access for donations and to try to offer some assistance. But I thoughts and prayers are with you, your family and everybody in India. And we really just cannot thank you enough Anu for taking this time to join us today because truly the world is watching and thoughts and prayers are with you. Thank you.