Subihi Setiwaldi is an undergraduate student at George Mason University and the co president of Justice for Uyghurs, an organization committed to advocacy work and raising awareness about the human rights crisis and the genocide of Uyghurs in the Xinjiang region of China. Subihi discusses the fact that she has not heard from her family in China for years and doesn't even know if they are alive anymore due to the oppression of the Uyghurs by the Chinese government. Subihi is impassioned about advocacy work on behalf of this human rights crisis and she offers listeners ideas on how they can get involved in helping.
www.amnesty.org
https://uhrp.org/
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/china-surveillance/552203/
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/09/china-ai-surveillance/614197/
Soniya Gokhale (00:05):
Welcome back to another episode of a Desi Woman Podcast. I am your host Soniya Gokhale and the voices I am seeking may have never been heard before, but their stories deserve to be told. What is a Desi woman? She is a dynamic, fearless and strong woman. She's your mother, your grandmother, your daughter, your sister. She is every one of us who is on an endless pursuit of self-empowerment and fulfillment. I am Soniya Gokhale and I am a Desi woman.
Soniya Gokhale (00:40):
Hello, and welcome to another edition of a Desi Woman Podcast. I am your host, Soniya Gokhale and today we are so excited to be joined by Subihi Setiwaldi. Subihi is an undergraduate student at George Mason University and the co president of Justice for Uyghurs, an organization committed to advocacy work and raising awareness about the human rights crisis and the genocide of Uyghurs in the Xinjiang region of China. Subihi, welcome to the show.
Subihi Setiwaldi (01:14):
Hi, how are you?
Soniya Gokhale (01:16):
I am so great. And we are just so excited to have you here and talk about this incredibly, incredibly important human rights crisis that is happening on planet earth right now with the Uyghurs in the Shandong region of China. And Subihi, I was surprised to learn that the Uyghurs are really an ethnically and culturally a Turkic people, but they're living in the areas of Central Asia, commonly known as East Turkistan, which is now under the control of the People's Republic of China.
Soniya Gokhale (01:54):
And I was really intrigued by the rich cultural history of the Uyghurs. But much like Tibetans, Uyghurs in East Turkistan have really struggled for cultural survival. And I know that you are a second-generation Uyghur, but I wanted to know if you could tell me more about your familial connections and your ties to the Uyghur culture and community.
Subihi Setiwaldi (02:20):
Of course. So right now I'm living in Northern Virginia in the US and this region has one of the largest Uyghur diaspora communities. I moved here from Oklahoma a few years ago, and the Midwest Oklahoma area only has a handful of Uyghur families, they don't have much. But here in Virginia, there are several thousand Uyghurs. So this was a huge cultural change for me because I was not used to this. I was not used to being around my own people.
Subihi Setiwaldi (02:49):
Back in Oklahoma I didn't have any real opportunities to engage with an Uyghur community. And it was so weird when I came here because there's so many new faces and I felt really awkward, I felt like an outcast in some moments. But then again, I was also inspired to learn more and practice my own culture and identity as an Uyghur. I've had the chance to participate in many community and advocacy events, including protests and lobby events and I'm really hoping I can do more work for my community and other Uyghur communities as well.
Soniya Gokhale (03:25):
I think that is wonderful. As a woman whose parents immigrated to the United States from India, I can vouch for the fundamental importance and significance of having connection to your culture and community. So I am delighted to hear that you've been able to find that in the Virginia area. I would also add that this is hugely significant if we look at the bigger picture of Uyghurs and their diaspora, because part of China's insidious mandate, and essentially the genocide of the Uyghur people at the hands of China entails the purposeful erasure of their cultural and ethnic identity.
Soniya Gokhale (04:09):
And that pertains to all facets, including language, religion, and a rich history that goes back hundreds of years. So by preserving that and being a torchbearer for that heritage across generations and amongst the diaspora is so critically important. So I do want to ask you if you could speak more about what you've been able to gain from being engaged with your culture and community as a college student in the Virginia area.
Subihi Setiwaldi (04:41):
Well, upon moving here, I wasn't really into advocacy work, but I've been learning more and more and catching up more of current events and news and I've been trying to improve my language as well, because I'll admit that my Uyghur language is not very good. I can speak, but it's just like, it's not very good, it's not fluent enough. So I've been working on that as well. And being surrounded by an Uyghur community is helping because I get the chance and opportunity to speak to people on all types of things and this is really helping me improve my Uyghur.
Soniya Gokhale (05:16):
Subihi, that is wonderful to hear that you are becoming familiar with your regional language. And I did want to ask you some information about your family. Did they originate from the Xinjiang region of China?
Subihi Setiwaldi (05:32):
Yes. So my family's from Artush, which is a small town near Kashgar and it's located in East Turkistan. I'm not too sure about what my family has experienced in that area because they don't talk a lot about it. But in general, regarding to the mass migration of Han Chinese into East Turkistan, that was sponsored by the Chinese government. Not only did this cause discrimination against Uyghur, but it also pushed them away from their homeland.
Subihi Setiwaldi (06:01):
Uyghurs were being treated like second class citizens and they were eventually assimilated to Uyghur, uh, into Chinese culture and language since they were surrounded by them. Uyghurs went from speaking mostly their mother tongue to speaking their oppressor's. Uyghur children were to learn and speak Chinese in schools, and there was this huge restriction of Uyghur culture and even religion was highly disregarded. Uyghur mosques and cultural sites were starting to be replaced with Chinese architecture and buildings. And these recr-restrictions increased and worsened year by year leading up to today's genocide.
Soniya Gokhale (06:45):
For those that might be listening who have never been to China, I have to offer that it is a country unlike any other with an absolute control of information by the government. I traveled to China in 2018 and so I can offer our listeners some insights. And I also want to reference an article from the Atlantic, which I will have a link for in the podcast notes.
Soniya Gokhale (07:12):
According to the article, China is racing to become the first country to implement a pervasive system of algorithmic surveillance, harnessing advances in artificial intelligence, data mining, and storage to construct detailed profiles on all citizens. China's Communist Party state is developing a citizen score to incentivize good behavior. A vast accompanying network of surveillance cameras will constantly monitor citizens' movements purportedly to reduce crime and terrorism.
Soniya Gokhale (07:51):
While the expanding Orwellian eye may improve public safety, it poses a chilling new threat to civil liberties in a country that already has one of the most oppressive and controlling governments in the world. When you step outside your door in China, you have to get accustomed to the fact that all of your actions in the physical world are also swept into the dragnet. The government gathers an enormous collection of information through video cameras placed on streets and all over the city.
Soniya Gokhale (08:29):
So in other words, if you commit a crime even jaywalking, facial recognition algorithms will match video footage of your face to your photo in a national ID database and it won't be long before the police show up at your door. And so this is some of what the country is positioning itself for. And again, this is all from the Atlantic from 2018 and it will have a link to that.
Soniya Gokhale (08:58):
As it pertains the Xinjiang region, the world must rely upon drone footage in order to detect activity and the construction of internment camps across the country. So I have to ask you Subihi, can you comment more about China's control of information and surveillance? And also as a heart-wrenching followup question, do you know the whereabouts of your loved ones and family in the Xinjiang region?
Subihi Setiwaldi (09:26):
Yes. So regarding to China's occupation of East Turkistan and surveillance, uh, Chinese government has dramatically increased the control of information by using their high-tech surveillance. And they've been taking measures to prevent Uyghurs from communicating efficiently with the outside world. So there's a lot of news outlets that have been banned and censored, including BBC News just this past month. As for my family, they came here to the US and were granted political asylum around 20 years ago because they were facing danger threats and abuse from the Chinese government.
Subihi Setiwaldi (10:10):
And then a year later after they had came to the US, I was born. So while my immediate family, while we can live our lives freely here in the US, a democratic country, most of my extended relatives, they're still back in East Turkistan. So all of my relatives that I was close to they're back in [waten 00:10:31] which is the Uyghur term for homeland. And even before there were camps, we were able to contact each other a bit, but there were still risks to it. After the camps, I don't know about their whereabouts, I don't even know if they're alive or not. And part of-
Soniya Gokhale (10:49):
Oh Subihi, that's heartbreaking.
Subihi Setiwaldi (10:52):
And another part of the struggle in trying to contact family members abroad is because China has blocked all communication. They're closely monitoring Uyghurs not only through the street cameras, but also through their homes. They placed Chinese government officials or cadres in their homes as a way of control. So even if one of my relatives were to reach out, it would be too risky because this could lead to their arrest or even to their detainment into one of the concentration camps.
Subihi Setiwaldi (11:23):
So we are forced to rely on drone footage and satellite images to learn what's going on back home in East Turkistan mostly because of China's surveillance and refusal to allow in journalists, reporters, human rights groups, and investigators, and even foreign government officials. China's always denied the genocide. In the beginning, they even published propaganda videos showing that Uyghurs were happy and they were not facing abuses.
Subihi Setiwaldi (11:52):
And when foreign government officials and media visited, they would constantly monitor them, only allowing them to go to areas that were already set up by them in preparation for investigations. But now the world knows that this is, that these are all lies, that China has been preventing everyone and anyone trying to investigate from entering the Uyghur region.
Soniya Gokhale (12:15):
You know, wh-what I think also another point to make is, and again, Louisa Greve brought this up that the Han Chinese and, and the general Chinese population, I found them to be delightful. But as Louisa indicated, there's definitely heavy handed mind control at play so that the rest of the Chinese population has actually been encouraged to report Uyghurs who are widely seen as jihadist terrorists or a serious threat security.
Soniya Gokhale (12:50):
And so it doesn't just extend, you talked about being treated as second class citizens, and this is so rampant and absolutely prevalent. And they have actually, you know, due to mind control or whatever you want to call it, they limit information obviously to the general population. They actually have the participation of the general Chinese population as well. And, and that's, that's something that I guess it's sort of difficult to imagine, but it serves the government well, and I don't know if you want to speak to that.
Subihi Setiwaldi (13:24):
Yeah. So they do that. They use this as a way, they use this mind control or brainwashing the public as a way to also prevent them from taking action. A lot of Chinese do realize that there is something wrong going on, that the Uyghur region has some suspicious activity to it and that the Chinese government is partaking. They are the reason for that suspicious activity yet they can't really speak up about it, or they don't really do anything about it because again, they're so brainwashed by the Chinese government that they don't realize this is wrong or that they turn a blind eye to it.
Soniya Gokhale (14:02):
I would agree with you on that and I'll share my experience. I had traveled to China during the course of my master's in budis, business administration. And what we found is that the Chinese people are absolutely amazing, but all access to any internet is completely controlled through WeChat and by the Chinese government. And so I do agree with you that if they were to find out, and like you said, I don't think they're quite as naive as the government would like to believe.
Soniya Gokhale (14:33):
I completely agree with you on that, and I do think that outrage will eventually grow internally, which is sort of their biggest fear. But currently, um, they are winning that propaganda g-game. And the average Chinese person, as you stated, would be afraid to speak up. Why would they? They'll face harsh penalties, imprisonment, or death themselves.
Subihi Setiwaldi (14:58):
Exactly. It's hard to speak out on these issues, especially in a place where there's no democracy, where there's no right to free speech. So for someone to speak out on behalf of someone else, they would be risking their own life.
Soniya Gokhale (15:13):
Definitely. And I want to offer that according to numerous global intelligence sources in-including the US state department, more than 1 million Uyghurs, ethnic Kazakhs and other Muslims have been placed in internment camps across China in a concentrated effort to erase religious and ethnic identities. Camp officials have abused, tortured and killed as many as 20,000 detainees. And that's a very low number by the way. And this is according to the Uyghur Human Rights Project.
Soniya Gokhale (15:45):
And it is estimated that there are more than 380 internment centers with 14 of them still under construction as of September 2020. And as you stated, you don't know the whereabouts of your family, but I do want to know what kind of advocacy work are you doing? And you happen to be based in the Virginia area. And I'm going to ask this question as we close out as well, but is there anything that can be done from an advocacy perspective to help people in the region?
Subihi Setiwaldi (16:19):
Yes, I think there can be steps taken. So in the past, I've worked with Amnesty International. Amnesty International is based in the US, this one is, and while we were working on preventing gun violence, we also had the option to work on our own separate projects. And I wanted my project to be on Uyghur awareness and advocacy. So I've done a bit of work on that. I've also attended protests and I tried to help with Uyghur organizations as well.
Subihi Setiwaldi (16:52):
As for the taking action part I think there's plenty that people can do. I think the first way to support this cause is to educate yourself and others. So if you're not aware of the situation or the intensity of it until now, the best thing to do is Google it and research it. The internet is free, and it has a lot of information. So share this information with people around you, with your friends and your family.
Subihi Setiwaldi (17:19):
And some good reports that I suggest are the ASPI Xinjiang Data Project, and the SPI Uyghurs for sale. And both reports give very good summaries and specific details into case studies and the Uyghur region as a whole. The other step that you can take is to take action through legislation. So for US-based listeners, you should contact your Senator to pass the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act, S65. And this is a bill that prevents goods produced by Uyghur forced labor from entering the US.
Subihi Setiwaldi (17:55):
And then we also have H.R. 1630 which was actually just introduced two days ago and it seeks to expedite Uyghur refugee applications by desi-designating Uyghur as priority to refugees. So these are very good legal actions, and these are stuff that we should prioritize. I think the best thing that we can do is try to advocate and try to take action through the legislation because policy makers are the ones that can really create change.
Soniya Gokhale (18:30):
I will have links in the podcast notes to Amnesty International, the Uyghur Human Rights Project, and other organizations that are involved in advocacy work for the Uyghur crisis whereby listeners can get involved. My goal in doing ongoing podcast episodes about this issue is to raise global awareness about a modern day genocide that is occurring on this planet right now in China.
Soniya Gokhale (19:00):
I am always emboldened and inspired by the great Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And one of my favorite quotes which I think truly applies to the Uyghurs is, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly."
Soniya Gokhale (19:29):
This couldn't be more true as now global corporations are being forced to really examine their supply chains and recognize that sourcing from Xinjiang region of China equates to utilizing the forced labor of Uyghurs and other Muslim groups. And Subihi, we cannot thank you enough for joining us today. You are a tremendous and inspiring example of a young woman who is using her life to advocate on behalf of the Uyghurs and the human rights crisis in China.
Subihi Setiwaldi (20:04):
Thank you for having me here.
Soniya Gokhale (20:06):
Thank you.
Subihi Setiwaldi (20:06):
It was a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you.