A Desi Woman with Soniya Gokhale

A Desi Woman with Soniya Gokhale: A Conversation with Gitika Talwar of 'Immigration Voice'---Highly Skilled Immigrants in the US from India or High Tech 'Indentured Servitude?'

Episode Summary

Gitika Talwar is a grassroots advocate with Immigration Voice or www.ImmigrationVoice.org, a U.S. based nonprofit organization representing the rights and interests of over 1.2 million immigrants, who contribute to the U.S. economy in highly skilled jobs. Gitika advocates for the pro-immigrant bipartisan legislation and Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act on behalf of Immigration Voice. Immigration Voice believes high-skilled legal immigrants strengthen the United States' economy and help advance America's intellectual capital. Their mission is to organize grassroots effort to resolve issues plaguing the employment-based immigration system of the U.S., empower immigrants to know their rights and seek a path to lawful permanent residency in the U.S., and to protect immigrant and American workers alike. So employers can not use immigrants with fewer rights to replace American workers. Soniya Gokhale (01:58): Gitika is a licensed psychologist, who earned her PhD in Maryland. Gitika, welcome to the show.

Episode Notes

www.ImmigrationVoice.org

Episode Transcription

Soniya Gokhale (00:05):

Welcome back to another episode of A Desi Woman Podcast. I am your host, Soniya Gokhale. And the voices I am seeking may have never been heard before, but their stories deserve to be told. What is a Desi woman? She is a dynamic, fearless and strong woman. She is your mother, your grandmother, your daughter, your sister. She is every one of us who is on an endless pursuit of self-empowerment and fulfillment. I am Soniya Gokhale and I am a Desi woman.

 

Soniya Gokhale (00:40):

Hello, and welcome to another edition of A Desi Woman Podcast. I am your host, Soniya Gokhale. And today, we are so excited to be joined by Gitika Talwar. Gitika Talwar is a grassroots advocate with Immigration Voice, a U.S. based nonprofit organization representing the rights and interests of over 1.2 million immigrants, who contribute to the U.S. economy in highly skilled jobs. Gitika advocates for the pro-immigrant bipartisan legislation and Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act on behalf of Immigration Voice.

 

Soniya Gokhale (01:19):

Immigration Voice believes high-skilled legal immigrants strengthen the United States' economy and help advance America's intellectual capital. Their mission is to organize grassroots effort to resolve issues plaguing the employment-based immigration system of the U.S., empower immigrants to know their rights and seek a path to lawful permanent residency in the U.S., and to protect immigrant and American workers alike. So employers can not use immigrants with fewer rights to replace American workers.

 

Soniya Gokhale (01:58):

Gitika is a licensed psychologist, who earned her PhD in Maryland. Gitika, welcome to the show.

 

Gitika Talwar (02:05):

Thanks for having me.

 

Soniya Gokhale (02:07):

Well, I want to understand what is the premise on which your organization is founded? My parents immigrated to this country in the '60s. And so, I think it is genuinely a hope and an aspiration for so many around the world to come to this amazing country, right? And I think, those from India... I mean, look at the trajectory of our current vice president, Kamala Devi Harris and her mother. I think that could be one of the earliest migrations that I've heard of, of a student coming to study in California in the late '50s. And so, obviously, there's always been an interest in the universities and professional offerings in this country, but a lot has changed. And we hear a lot about the H1B visa.

 

Soniya Gokhale (03:02):

And there's no question that we really need a lot of the highly-skilled workers that are truly being produced by India.

 

Soniya Gokhale (03:12):

If there's other countries out there that are offering the type of workforce India is, you don't hear about it quite as much. And I want to offer for... I know we have a lot of global listeners. I mean, you have to look no further than Silicon Valley to see some of the most wealthy South Asians and Indians from our diaspora, who have really found success in this country. And the H1B visa is probably where it all started. So I would like to know more about the origins of your organization. And then, I have some follow-up questions for you.

 

Gitika Talwar (03:49):

Sure. So Immigration Voice was founded in about 2006, 2007. So the organization is more than 15 years old. And it was from the outset devoted to protecting the rights of high-skilled immigrants in the United States. So going by just our website itself, where we list our mission and objectives. We're very clear about the fact that we are a pro-immigrant organization. And we believe that even as high-skilled legal immigrants strengthen the United States, both the economy and intellectual capital, it's extremely important that individuals who live in the United States be free to pursue their dreams and their happiness in the way the U.S. constitution promised.

 

Gitika Talwar (04:45):

And for immigrants who migrate to the U.S. through the employment-based pathway, be it H1B visas or L1 visas, it's necessary that they eventually be freed from the employers who sponsor their paperwork. And sponsoring, not just financially, but sponsoring by virtue off stating to the U.S. immigration system that these particular immigrants are fulfilling some kind of labor needs. So there is an entire process by which the U.S. based employer essentially holds the keys to the migration of individuals from all over the world, who wish to live in the United States. There ends up being this relationship where you need to be promising that you are bringing certain things to the U.S., which are mainly your skills. And the employer is promising the U.S. government too, that there are certain skills here that they need.

 

Gitika Talwar (05:52):

And our organization essentially believes that for individuals to truly be free though, they need to, at some point, be freed from their employer, so that they are not constantly just fulfilling the demands of a master. And also, if your life in the U.S. is determined by a master who is going to... Basically, if they want to fire you, is going to push you to uproot your life in the U.S. and force you to leave the country, it puts the immigrant in this constant state of being indentured into the organization.

 

Gitika Talwar (06:32):

So that's just contrary to what's built into the U.S. Constitution. That people at the heart of it, be free to pursue their dreams. And when immigrants are indentured into organizations, they are actually not doing that. So our organization believes in the rights of the high-skilled immigrant community and works to essentially advocate for those rights.

 

Soniya Gokhale (06:59):

That makes so much sense to me. And this really is an example of a high-tech indentured servitude here and in 2021, that has gone on for quite some time. But it absolutely makes sense what you're describing. So we're familiar with the firms Tata Consultancy Services, Infosys, Cognizant to name a few. And what you're indicating is that this employer basically is the pathway and the only way for these skilled workers and their families to come here. But they're at the mercy of these employers.

 

Gitika Talwar (07:34):

Right.

 

Soniya Gokhale (07:34):

And the employers determine their fate. And I agree with you. I mean, look what we're doing for the dreamers, for the young children and unaccompanied minors that are here, that are being promised a pathway to citizenship. And it's really unfortunate that what you're indicating is currently, there really doesn't exist a way forward for these people, these folks to control their own destiny. And can you speak about that further? So you're indicating that right now, there's no pathway to getting a green card. Do the employers sometimes facilitate that process? Are there some employers that do that?

 

Gitika Talwar (08:15):

So the pathway to becoming lawful permanent resident, which is what's commonly called the green card. To become a green card holder in the United States, if you're coming through the employment based pathway, which is technically the only pathway you as an individual have some control over. If you have some kind of skills or something that you apply to a job that could sponsor your H1B visa, that ends up being step one.

 

Gitika Talwar (08:45):

And then there ends up being a further process that the employer will then say, "Okay, you can live in the United States permanently. I'm going to fill out more paperwork on behalf of this employee." You can't do that on your own. You again, need an employer to do that. So there is technically a pathway to a green card. However, the most important thing to remember is that the green cards have an annual limit, and an annual per country limit. So no more than 10,000 green cards every year can go to people of any one country. So when you look at the population of different countries, this 10,000 limit being a standard limit for all countries, some countries will never even send 10,000 immigrants.

 

Gitika Talwar (09:38):

Whereas other countries, there might easily be more than 10,000 people from those countries who will end up in the U.S. as students, or they might apply to jobs. So when you end up dealing with this annual limit on green cards, even if you are approved for a green card, for the Indian nationals, the wait time for a green card is 150 to 193 years. In effect, a 200 year green card backlog means like two, three lifetimes before which you will actually get this green card that you have been approved for you. You and I will not be alive for those green cards to really reach our doorstep.

 

Gitika Talwar (10:29):

So a lot of times what people don't recognize is that the H1B has a limit. You can't live on an H1B indefinitely, unless you've been approved for a green card. But if you've been approved for a green card and the wait time is 150 to nearly 200 years, you are going to stay attached to that employer till the green card arrives. And which means the green card's not arriving in your own lifetime. So you are perpetually indentured into organizations. And mind you, they're not just tech organizations, healthcare, academia. There are folks in every industry. Tech is just most well-known because it's in the news all the time, but it's important to recognize that there are people in every industry.

 

Gitika Talwar (11:17):

And it's a bit of a fallacy to assume that Indians are chosen purely based on their skills. It sounds it's like the indentured servitude model has ended up working for different industries because where else will you get a labor force that is told, "Hey, you do have a pathway to a green card," but what you're not told is that the pathway is 200 years long. So you end up assuming that the day of freedom will come, but you end up staying attached to this employer, never moving, never changing. And the freedom of labor movement that has been...

 

Gitika Talwar (11:57):

Whenever I speak to American citizens, they always talk about... But the freedom of labor movement is just so important in the American work culture. That you have the freedom to change jobs, but you get this stagnant workforce, this indentured workforce, that is in a 200 year green card wait time. So it ends up refuting the idea that it's because of skills. It ends up being like, "Oh no, it's because it's easy indentured labor." And easy indentured labor is at the heart of it. Just bad for work cultures. It's bad for workers who have rights.

 

Gitika Talwar (12:40):

If an employer ends up having to choose between a worker who will maintain their work, despite exploitative living conditions, versus a worker who will choose to leave that job because they know they deserve better, unfortunately, a lot of employers end up sticking with the employee who will give them less trouble. And in general, it ends up being an indentured worker.

 

Gitika Talwar (13:07):

And in the case of the Indian immigrant community, it ends up being the green card wait time, ends up making us very easy indentured labor. And that's just not okay for the U.S. economy. That's not okay for people who had dreams when they migrated to the U.S. and they dreamt of freedom. They didn't dream of being indentured servants.

 

Soniya Gokhale (13:33):

Yeah. I am still in shock about the time period that you indicated. It's absolutely outrageous.

 

Gitika Talwar (13:40):

Right. It is.

 

Soniya Gokhale (13:40):

And I mean, truly, it is absolutely outrageous. And what a precarious existence as well, to be here and not know.

 

Gitika Talwar (13:48):

It is.

 

Soniya Gokhale (13:48):

So you can partake in some of the enjoyment of this country without really knowing what your future holds.

 

Gitika Talwar (13:58):

Yeah. And I definitely... Sorry to interrupt you, Soniya. Finish what you were saying. I definitely want to add something to it.

 

Soniya Gokhale (14:06):

Oh, please, no. Please go ahead.

 

Gitika Talwar (14:13):

So every time people are shocked, there's that part of me that goes like, "Oh, okay. Oh, other people didn't know that." So the studies are out of keto. So definitely just look up Cato, 150 year wait. Plus, look CRS, Congressional Research Services and say 193 year wait. And you will find both papers.

 

Gitika Talwar (14:33):

But the other thing I really wanted to say, and this is really my... It's very important that folks understand this, that while you live in the United States, like you mentioned, this precarious existence. When you're living on temporary visas, you're required to renew your visas every one to three years. And in that period, there is still every possibility that your renewals will fail. So you will be forced to leave. And every day we have at least one person's story that comes to our doorstep about somebody who's lived here 17 years, and then suddenly renewal failed, and he has packed bags and his entire family, they all have to move. So that's one very basic thing. You're constantly worried about your next renewal.

 

Gitika Talwar (15:19):

You can't travel easily when your renewals are in process. People have missed funerals. They've missed weddings because their paperwork was in the process of getting renewed. So it's almost like, "If I miss this funeral, there's one outcome. And if I go for this funeral and my paperwork ends up being jeopardized, my entire life in the U.S. comes to a crashing halt." Because nobody will understand that, especially the immigration system, will not understand that you had to go back to India because of this emergency.

 

Gitika Talwar (15:51):

The other thing is that the spouses have a very precarious work authorization. Many spouses are unable to work. I submitted, for example, my renewal paperwork in April 2020 and my work authorization expired. And I'm out of work, even though I'm a qualified psychologist.

 

Gitika Talwar (16:09):

And also children age out of green card applications. When people are migrating to the U.S. and if they already have minor children, so children who were born overseas, when they come to the U.S. with their parents, they are also required to... There's paperwork for them. But when those children turn 21, they essentially age out, which is a phrase that essentially just means that those children no longer belong on their parents' green card applications. And we have tremendous pain as a community when we watch our children, who we had dreams for. That they would have a life that was very different because they came with us to the U.S. as kids.

 

Gitika Talwar (16:55):

And they have believed they were American till we had to tell them, "Honey, when you go to school, when you go to college, you will actually have to apply as an international student." And even that's not guaranteed. A lot of kids don't get those visas. So they end up being forced to leave the country when they turned 21, or go back, do the same things that we did. Apply to be international students, apply for H1B visas, and then join us in this indentured servitude. That is not the life we want for our children.

 

Gitika Talwar (17:26):

And that is not the life we want for any immigrant moving to the United States. Thinking they've come for freedom, thinking they've come to achieve their American dream, but you're dealing with this. And I think most grievously, what I really want people to understand is, in the last few years, the most public experience of grief for us as a community has been the number of GoFundMe accounts we have contributed to as a community for people who died waiting for their green cards, and their families were forced to leave the country because the principal green card applicant was dead. They did not have legal standing in the country anymore.

 

Gitika Talwar (18:07):

And to have lived in the country for so long and then be told, "You are nothing without that high-skilled immigrant, whose green card had been sponsored." And to have the family be deported back. That to me has been, I think, one of the most painful experiences as someone in the green card backlog, to watch people not only live in indentured servitude, but also deal with being deported if somebody died. And-

 

Soniya Gokhale (18:43):

That is incredible.

 

Gitika Talwar (18:46):

That's been what we have seen again and again.

 

Soniya Gokhale (18:50):

I cannot believe. I am so glad that you're bringing this to light. And like I said before, I'd like to have you back on a recurring basis because it is such a hot topic, but that is unconscionable.

 

Soniya Gokhale (19:01):

And I just want to go over some of the other exclusions, that these folks face, based on being employment-based applicants caught in the per country backlog, which really does bleed into their quality of life and interfere with it. So they cannot become entrepreneurs and start new businesses, that could create new American jobs. And I can honestly say that, as speaking for our diaspora, you can rest assured we would add effectively to this economy. We've done so. It's been demonstrated across all socioeconomic levels.

 

Soniya Gokhale (19:41):

So we're not even being put in a position to help this country create new jobs. You cannot accept promotions from your employer without starting over in the green card line, which is absolutely opposite of the American dream, where you strive to do better and move up the chain of command in various organizations. You can't change employers without starting over in the green card line. You can't visit loved ones in home countries without a risk of being held upon their return to the U.S. And most secure student visas for children turning 18, could face forced deportation, in spite of years of paying taxes to local and state educational systems. And so, this is just unbelievable.

 

Soniya Gokhale (20:35):

And I want to pivot now to a topic that is really, really making major headlines in this country, as we have welcomed the Biden administration. And we are seeing an incredible surge of unaccompanied minors at our southern border in this country. And regardless of what side of politics that you fall on, it's been termed a crisis. And I think that could be an accurate statement. Since we see young children often being dropped by traffickers, maybe 13 feet in the air, onto the ground with their siblings and being placed in various locations for housing purposes, until they're paired with a guardian of some type.

 

Soniya Gokhale (21:22):

And so, I want to ask you where, or how does this affect the H1B visa holders and the green card issue for South Asians, or those from our diaspora that are trying to enter this country? What is Immigration Voices' perspective on this issue? Is it something that is not really connected to your endeavor and what you guys are doing? I just find it hard to believe that here we are. I recognize it's a humanitarian crisis, but that group of individuals, is very disparate than what we're talking about with these highly-skilled workers that are ready, willing, and able to contribute to our economy. And so, it's kind of unimaginable that these two exist in the same conversation, right? But I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

 

Gitika Talwar (22:16):

I think it's important to recognize that these are actually two different conversations altogether. And a lot of times, the immigration conversation conflates these topics. So I mean, I think the question that you're raising is one that comes at us pretty often. That what do we think about that? They're two separate conversations and they are related to two separate things. And I think it's important to recognize that there is room to walk and chew gum at the same time. There is the crisis at the border. And there is what the Biden administration is attempting to do. And that's their mission, vision, absolutely.

 

Gitika Talwar (23:11):

So I think the main thing that I would say is there is room to do both. And pitting immigrant communities against each other, which tends to happen sometimes in these conversations. Pitting immigrant communities against each other, when they have such different experience and such different pathways to migration, and the fragility of their lives in the U.S. is different. Like I am vulnerable to deportation if my visa expires. So whatever pathway I may have followed, the fact is that what I have come here to do will eventually still... I mean, you can't compare the two things. They're two very different things. So when the high-skilled immigrant community watches that any legislation to address this human rights violation that we experience when we are indentured into organizations because of a broken employment-based system, when we see those human rights violations being embedded into the legal immigration system, we expect that something needs to be reformed in that legal immigration system.

 

Gitika Talwar (24:33):

And so, we don't necessarily have any kind of opposition to the rights or immigration bills that are introduced for the protection of immigrant communities that are outside the employment-based system. So these humanitarian pathways, they serve their own purpose. We don't have any opposition to that. What we have to keep reminding everybody, including the administration, is that both things are necessary. You can't exploit one community and keep saying that exploitation is okay, or failing to actually pass legislation, or introduce legislation that will actually help the rights of immigrants who are otherwise indentured servitude. So I think, to really summarize it, I think there are two separate issues and it's a both/and issue. It's not an either/or issue.

 

Soniya Gokhale (25:34):

Well, we have learned so much today. And really, I genuinely gained a whole new level of empathy for all of those whom your organization assists. And just once again, the organization is Immigration Voice, www.immigrationvoice.org. And I will have a link in the podcast notes. Gitika, thank you so much for joining us today. And truly, it's been extremely enlightening and we would really welcome you back again.

 

Gitika Talwar (26:09):

Awesome. Thanks, Soniya. Bye-bye.