A Desi Woman with Soniya Gokhale

A Desi Woman with Soniya Gokhale: Hinduism, Immigration & Trauma in the Indian & South Asian Diaspora--A Conversation with Dr. Usha Tummala-Narra--Part 2

Episode Summary

Dr. Usha Tummala-Narra joins us to discuss how the South Asian & Indian Diaspora manage the complexities surrounding Hindu & Eastern belief systems, Immigration & Trauma. Usha is a professor of counseling, developmental and educational psychology at Boston College, and she's also a licensed psychologist with a private practice in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Her areas of research and clinical expertise include trauma and mental health among immigrant communities, South Asian American and Asian American psychology, and cultural competence and psychotherapy practices. Usha, welcome to the show.

Episode Notes

https://www.bc.edu/bc-web/schools/lynch-school/faculty-research/faculty-directory/usha-tummala-narra.html

https://www.thetraumatherapistproject.com/podcast/usha-tummala-narra-phd/

 

Journal of Applied Psychoanalytic Studies, Vol. 3, No. 3, 2001

Asian Trauma Survivors: Immigration, Identity, Loss, and Recovery

Pratyusha Tummala-Narra

https://www.academia.edu/25195396/Asian_trauma_survivors_Immigration_identity_loss_and_recovery

Counselor Referrals:


Diya Kallivayalil, Ph.D. in Cambridge, MA  diyajk@gmail.com


 

Lisa Desai, PsyD, in Newton, MA  (857) 353-8483


 

Anju Kaduvettoor-Davidson, PhD, in Austin, TX  anju.kaduvettoor@gmail.com


 

Neha Patel, PsyD, in Chicago, IL  nrpcspp@gmail.com

 

Domestic Violence Organizations:

https://www.thehotline.org/

www.sakhi.org

https://www.domesticshelters.org/resources/national-global-organizations/international-organizations

Episode Transcription

Soniya Gokhale (00:05):

Welcome back to another episode of a Desi Woman Podcast. I am your host, Soniya Gokhale, and the voices I am seeking may have never been heard before, but their stories deserve to be told. What is a Desi Woman? She is a dynamic, fearless, and strong woman. She is your mother, your grandmother, your daughter, your sister. She is every one of us who is on an endless pursuit of self-empowerment and fulfillment. I am Soniya Gokhale and I am a Desi Woman.

 

Soniya Gokhale (00:40):

Hello, and welcome to another edition of a Desi Woman Podcast. I am your host Soniya Gokhale. And today, we are so excited to be joined once again by Dr. Usha Tummala-Narra. Usha is a professor of counseling, developmental and educational psychology at Boston college. And she's also a licensed psychologist with a private practice in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Her areas of research and clinical expertise include trauma and mental health among immigrant communities, South Asian American, and Asian American psychology and cultural competence and psychotherapy practices. Usha, welcome to the show.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (01:24):

Thank you, Soniya. It's great to be here.

 

Soniya Gokhale (01:27):

Awesome. Well, the last time that ... part one of our last episode ... we were discussing the interdependence on the family unit and within our Diaspora, and especially the South Asian Diaspora and how often it can be further complicated in cases where one or more family members are traumatized by another family member. And especially as it pertains to the Indian and Japanese, which are really characterized by intimate hierarchical relationships. And we kind of discussed some of this, the subordinate members are very dependent on those members of the family with superior ranking. And we were just about to dive into one of the cases that you illustrate pertaining to Meena. And so I will perhaps let you sort of give an overview of this young woman, obviously this case, and the academic paper with authored almost 20 years ago, but it gives an amazing insight into sort of how she presented and some of the issues that are detailed on this.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (02:40):

Yeah. Well, thank you Soniya, for highlighting this issue of interdependence in the family unit. In so many South Asian families, I think in many other Asian cultures also, there's this way in which there's a mutuality among family members. There's a way in which we tend to connect with other family members in reciprocal relationships where it's not necessarily a situation where, in some family structures where the parents are being the parents and caring for the kids, but in fact, the kids also care for parents and older members of the family. So there's this value placed on mutuality and interdependence in our cultures. And I think that particular value that we have gives us a great sense of comfort and security and connection. And at the same time, in the case of interpersonal violence or violence in the home or abuse of any kind in the home, that this presents a much deeper problem.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (03:43):

And so I'll share with you this case of a young woman named Meena. I call her Meena and she's an Indian woman in her late twenties when I had met her, and she sought out psychotherapy and also psycho pharmacological treatments and medications for her depressed mood and her headaches that she was experiencing. She is married and had a three-year-old son at that time. She had come to the U.S. when she was 19 years old from a rural part in Northern India. And she left her parents' home to live with her cousins family in the U.S. and she had been hoping that she would be able to secure immigration status and then eventually sponsor her parents and her siblings to the U.S. When I had met her, she told me that she had been having headaches ever since she was in her late teens, so before leaving India. And she also recalled memories of witnessing her father physically abusing her mother almost every day.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (04:47):

Her only consistent stable caregiver was her maternal grandmother. And sadly her, this grandmother, had died about three years before I had met Meena. So she was really grieving the loss of this one figure in her life, who she deeply cared about and gave her that sense of consistency and care. When she moved to the U.S., she worked in a cousin's business. It was a male cousin, and she worked in his business without getting paid. And about six months after she came to the U.S., he began to physically abuse her and rape her. The abuse actually continued until the day after Meena got married. And to complicate things even further, Meena's marriage was arranged by the cousin who had abused her.

 

Soniya Gokhale (05:38):

Oh my goodness.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (05:39):

Yeah, so it's this really layered, complex piece. And in fact, the marriage itself was arranged by this cousin and the way that she sort of processed that piece, in our initial meeting ... she talked a lot about how she was indebted to this cousin, even though he had been hurting her, severely. And she also mentioned, when I first met her, that she prayed to God as a way of coping with her pain and her suffering.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (06:12):

So it was a complicated thing for her to figure out what to do with all of these different relationships that were overlapping, interconnected, and this interdependent kind of system. Also her parents and her siblings immigrated to the U.S. at the time of Meena's marriage. And she told me on several occasions that she must keep the secret. And those were her words. Must keep the secret to protect her parents and siblings from being hurt by this cousin, by this perpetrator she imagined. And he explicitly told her that ... never to speak about this, otherwise people in the family will get hurt.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (06:49):

So to me, Meena's case highlights how a survivor of trauma, their anxiety around separating from the family system, as well as the impact of the interdependent system, the great impact that has on her and not just her, but in survivors' ways of coping with trauma. Her experience also underscores the cultural prohibitions in Indian and other Asian communities against revealing interpersonal conflicts to anyone outside the family.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (07:20):

And any disclosure could bring shame or stigma to the whole family. So she was trying to really contain all of these different negative feelings and consequences for not just herself, but her whole family, and particularly her parents and her siblings and her husband, who she found to be very supportive in her life. But she was trying to protect her husband and her child as well, from shame and stigma. So this is an example of how I think the interdependent system that we're talking about, can have really complicated consequences for people.

 

Soniya Gokhale (07:58):

Wow. No, it is absolutely incredible. And I think what strikes me as well, is the connection that she had with their maternal grandmother, because I think as we spoke about last time and I relate to this, my father's mother was basically like a mother to me. And then she left me at five years old to go care for my cousin. My male cousin had been born in Cleveland and his mother also, my aunt was a physician, so she needed help. So that's what she went to do.

 

Soniya Gokhale (08:29):

And similarly to Meena, and I think countless other South Asians in our Diaspora, that is our primary caregiver. And so when we lose that, it really is very, very complex because her maternal, her own maternal figure ... she had seen suffering domestic abuse. And so you wonder about these messages. And again, I would offer that whether it's verbal or physical, sadly, this is also a pattern that we see, and we know that the messages and how they're interpreted by young men can be different by young women.

 

Soniya Gokhale (09:05):

We don't have the time today to get into one of the other cases pertaining to Sanjay, but that is a perfect example of how a young man has interpreted watching domestic violence. In Meena's case, I have to ask the question, do some of your patients who come in ... I mean, it's almost like women have to just accept this. And she was abused repeatedly by people in her life. And I would like to say that this doesn't occur, but I can think of so many examples, whether through friends or extended family where this happens. It happens a lot, way too much. And so the burden and the generational trauma, like we can't forget about that, but you know, this is just one generation. We know it happened to her mother. We can only venture to guess, did it happen in previous generations? And so I want to hear about that and how you unpack that guilt of like, yes, I got to be quiet about this because I got to protect everybody.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (10:03):

Yes. It's such an excellent point because I think in her case, and in so many cases, there's this expectation that becomes internalized. It's not just an explicit expectation that other family members have of women, but it's also something that women internalize that we have to sacrifice our own needs, and we have to put that aside for the good of the whole family to make sure that this interdependent system is functioning and is functioning in a way that can maintain itself ... that it can be passed on to the next generation.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (10:39):

So when you have this deep desire, but also a responsibility that you feel like you have, and that's been assigned to you that you are the carrier of this tradition ... and so I think there's a way in which, in her case, for Meena, the grandmother played a significant role, a critical role in sort of helping her feel protected, which she couldn't have felt when she was either with her mother or with her father.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (11:08):

And so she saw her mom being hurt, but couldn't protect her, and also saw her mom as someone who couldn't protect herself or her daughter from witnessing what was happening. So in a way, this grandmother taught her that it was okay to take care of yourself and that you deserve to be protected. So she played a critical role. And I think for so many South Asian children, the grandparents play an enormous role. And sometimes it's aunts and uncles, extended family, that play a critical role in bringing that kind of comfort and soothing, particularly in the cases of trauma or other kinds of abuse, or even emotional distance that a child might feel from a parent. The grandparent or the aunt or the uncle, they might bring that sense of stability and that feeling of comfort when the child really needs it. And so it's interesting to see multiple people being involved in caring for a child. And so the child is growing up with a lot of different impressions and not just sort of like one parent or two parents.

 

Soniya Gokhale (12:18):

That is so absolutely correct. And it's interesting because in this country, there's so much emphasis upon a nuclear family, nuclear families. And yet I see merit in both, because as you indicated, my life was greatly enriched having my grandparents in our household. And they kind of went to different ... my mom's other siblings, and spent some time there, but sometimes I think they end up staying where their favorite child may be a bit more or wherever they sort of have a bit more freedom, because there's interpersonal relationships obviously with the in-laws. And so, it really makes for a complex sort of cocktail, if you will of interpersonal relationships. And then, I did want to ask you that, secrecy is the commonality here, keeping it quiet, whether it's the domestic violence, incest, rape, any kind of violence. And I want to ask you, so this is energetic.

 

Soniya Gokhale (13:15):

I think some of that ties into our Hindu religion and the sense of Dharma because obviously divorced is frowned upon. And I think I mentioned it in one of our podcasts, that there's so much guilt around divorce. I mean, as I stated, we are invoking the spirits of our departed ancestors and especially, I am not a proponent of castes in any capacity, but in the upper caste, you actually have a gotra, which is your lineage.

 

Soniya Gokhale (13:45):

And so you invoke ancestors from going back centuries, perhaps even. And, so no pressure there, right? And then you have to ask, what are the psychosomatic components related to this? As you stated, she had severe headaches. And I think we mentioned before, alcoholism, eating disorders, a host of other issues end up coming forth. And so I just want to see, as you treat populations from our Diaspora, is there some progress in this area? I know there's a lot of organizations I've interviewed. Saki.org, and now there's a network of them across the globe really. But is this still, unfortunately, a case where you see that mind body connection, and then also are people more prone to seeking help?

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (14:39):

Yeah. These are great questions. Absolutely. There's a mind body connection, particularly when there is this issue of secrecy, right? So if you can't speak about it, it doesn't mean you don't feel it in your body. We continue to feel things that are stressful, even when we're not talking about it, or even when other people aren't talking about it. So in many of our families, it's far more accepted to get help for physical symptoms, right. That it makes it more okay, more plausible, that a person has some kind of stomach issues or headaches, or they feel tired. And these are all indicators that something isn't right, but you're still not having to talk about the problem, the source of the stress itself. So people are continuing to get help from primary care doctors who will often refer the person to see a therapist or a psychiatrist.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (15:38):

And when they see no biological basis or source for that physical problem. So oftentimes, I continue to see people who are willing wanting to get help for those physical symptoms. It doesn't mean those physical symptoms aren't real. It's just that the source of those physical symptoms, may be psychological in nature, and then would require a psychological intervention ... which means in Western Euro-American psychotherapy, we talk about things and that's the verbalizing of our distress as the main mechanism through which we address these issues.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (16:17):

There might be other forms of healing that people partake in like yoga or meditation or spirituality, exercise, reading, whatever it might be, or connecting with friends. These are all important coping mechanisms, depending on whatever works for that person. But there is a way in which there there's a mind body connection that is timeless, that is not unique to the first generation or the second generation.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (16:45):

I see it across the board in different ways, in different forms. However, I do see that there's more of an awareness among at least among certain subgroups within the South Asian Diaspora, where people are talking more about violence. They're talking more about being unhappy in a marriage or in a relationship that they feel there's inequities or that there are abusive dynamics. So while that's happening, on one hand, I still think there's a great deal of internal psychological pressure to meet those ideals of what it means to be a South Asian woman or a South Asian man. What your role is depending on your gender or your position in a family. And so those pressures persist, even though there is growing awareness and more conversation about these issues. So it's still very complicated. And I still have ... I work with patients sometimes who struggle with these conflicts of how do I meet the ideals of what a South Asian person should be like?

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (17:53):

And how do I make my parents happy? How do I make my grandparents happy? Because of those deep, loving connections that people have with their families. This interdependent system that we're talking about. And at the same time they are, what do I do with my own personal wishes and desires that stand in contrast to those expectations? And this is the dilemma that I don't think is easily resolved by any means, but rather it's something that we engage in, in the therapy process and we explore and try to come to some understanding of it, so that a person can make some choices in their life that feel more authentic to them. And maybe at that point, they're more willing to then communicate with people in their families about what they really feel, despite how risky that might feel.

 

Soniya Gokhale (18:45):

Well, I think that does make a lot of sense. And I also want to touch upon one aspect of this pertaining to Hinduism. But as you indicated, there's sort of some crossover, whether it's the Muslim religion, Sikhism, a lot of them have this commonality. And that is the concept of karma. I've often heard women say, this is just my karma. I have to work this out in this lifetime, or I'm going to come back with them in another lifetime. I've literally heard this before. And while I recognize that, I would argue that, no, I do not believe our faith advocates that you get beat up on a daily ... that is not your karma. And perhaps your karma is to say, no, it stops in this generation. And no, I don't need to come back again and my daughter doesn't need to see this. My son doesn't need to see it.

 

Soniya Gokhale (19:36):

But I think that's a bit harmful, as well as we do cast astrology chart before we were to match up a couple. And so predominant, to a point where, sometimes couples will not be matched in India or what would be considered just vastly unsuitable, if their charts don't match up. And so there's this like layer of ... I don't want to call it mysticism, but I wanted to understand ... I mean, I think having somebody like yourself with the background that you do, and I will have links in the podcast notes to other counselors that you've offered ... because it's so important, it would not make sense in the context if you're seeing a Catholic counselor, somebody who has a background of an Anglo Christian background, this wouldn't make sense, but I want to understand that that sort of an additional layer to all of this.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (20:25):

Yeah. I think there's a way in which people are skeptical about a therapist trying to understand their point of view and also the perspectives of family members. Sometimes people worry that if they were going to see a therapist of a different cultural or racial or religious background, that that therapist might actually pathologize family members or pathologize them and their belief systems. And that's never helpful. That's not something that would develop any sense of real trust with the therapist. And so it's very important that that therapist be open and curious about how people kind of construct meaning out of things in their life, including concepts like karma.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (21:10):

And it's interesting because when people talk about karma, and I've heard similar things, Soniya, about how there's sort of like a sense of resignation to a particular situation that we're in because of this belief in karma or this interpretation of karma, that's I think more accurate ... because I don't think it's necessarily the belief or the concept, but it's how we understand it in relation to our own lives ... because there are just as many other concepts in Hinduism that stand in direct contrast to that interpretation, right?

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (21:41):

So for example, our Dharma, which is our roles, our duties, our responsibilities as human beings, right ... actually calls us to protect our children and to model something for them, to teach them about self-respect and about respect to others. And so, this belief in karma, or this interpretation that it's because of karma, that I can't leave an abusive situation, or I have to tolerate abuse, stands directly in contrast to this idea of what one's duty and responsibility really is. Right?

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (22:18):

So there are a lot of contradictions in the ways that I think people can interpret these Hindu or spiritual or religious concepts in general. But I think it happens more so because there isn't a support system that helps you sort of consider a different interpretation of that concept. If you are in a family that, sort of re reinforces the idea that if you believe in karma and you're a real Hindu, then you will just have to sacrifice everything about your wellbeing to be in a relationship.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (22:54):

Then that's a particular type of interpretation that unfortunately keeps you stuck sometimes in that situation. It doesn't move you into a different way of thinking about the situation. So I think that people have different interpretations of these concepts. And I know that in therapy, this is what we try to do, as a therapist tries to explore different meanings, different possible explanations for things, not just sort of rule out or pathologize any particular perspective, but actually try to help explore and expand the range of possibilities for the patient.

 

Soniya Gokhale (23:31):

That absolutely is so integral to all of this. And I think, as we close out, first of all, I can't thank you enough for joining us, and this academic paper is just absolutely incredible. And like I said, rather timeless, because here we are some 20 years later, and I still find it to be very relevant. But what's also interesting is, look, I was born and raised in this country, and yet I can see that this generational trauma and the implications of being the daughter of immigrants is a huge part of the fabric of who I am.

 

Soniya Gokhale (24:08):

And there is no way to say yes, I'm proud to be an American, but my goodness, all of the things that we've discussed in this episode and the previous one, are directly tied to my heritage as an Indian woman. My parents, as immigrants to this country, because we cannot underscore enough how immigration and the acculturation process affects all of us. Even if we didn't just come from India. We see it. We feel it. We learn it from a young age. And I guess any other closing comments that you might have.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (24:46):

Yeah, it's such an important point because it doesn't matter if we were born in India or born here. It's certainly being born and raised in India has its own unique experience, that's critically important and different than growing up here. But at the same time, when we're growing up with parents who, with an Indian heritage, that there's a way in which we're absorbing our culture and our beliefs collectively, and it's happening mostly implicitly or unconsciously. It's not happening necessarily in an explicit way where people are telling you how to think, but they're showing you how to think, and we're absorbing it, you know? So I fully agree with you in terms of ... that this is not an issue that's just relevant to people who come as immigrants to this country, but it's really relevant to subsequent generations as well.

 

Soniya Gokhale (25:45):

There's no doubt about that. And the only thing I can say is, my goodness, what a shining light of hope that you exist and others like you to help sort of make sense of things that in trauma, that shouldn't be happening, but does. And really, I pray that Meena has found a happy life and others like her, because that's the whole point is, there is help. It does help to speak to someone and I will have links in the notes. I encourage anyone to please access them. And we really cannot thank you enough, Dr. Usha Tummala-Narra for joining us today.

 

Usha Tummala-Narra (26:24):

Thank you so much, Soniya. It's been a pleasure to join you.

 

Soniya Gokhale (26:27):

Thank you.